Noam Kroll is an LA-based filmmaker and a well-known proponent of micro-budget filmmaking. Ivan Malekin was lucky enough to interview Noam via Zoom about his new feature, “Disappearing Boy”, which he filmed with no crew. In this interview Noam reveals exactly how and why he made a film this way, but also talks about the benefits of micro-budget filmmaking and his creative and work philosophies in general. Read the transcript below [edited lightly for clarity]. Or watch the interview here in two parts:
IM
So let's first start with talking about your new film, Disappearing Boy. Firstly, what's the film about?
NK
It's a kidnapping thriller. It's sort of a psychological thriller, and it's about this man named Eddie, and there's a cold open where we see his son go missing. And then we cut to a year later, and a lot has transpired in that year. Eddie is now on the run as he had chased down the wrong suspect and gotten himself in a lot of trouble with the law. And now he is estranged from his ex-wife, who he thinks might have information about where his son is. So really, the film is about Eddie and his ex-wife, Jessica. And they're reuniting a year after their son disappeared in hopes of finding him before it's too late.
IM
So essentially it's a bit of a mystery thriller with a relationship drama on top.
NK
Exactly. Yeah, that's a that's a great way to describe it.
IM
That sounds really intriguing. What inspired this idea?
NK
So it was sort of a few things. So on the one hand, I had my first son a few years ago, and I was just thinking a lot about the ways that your brain sort of changes when you have kids and how you start thinking about all the ways you want to protect your kids and all the dangers out in the world. So I was trying to funnel that energy into this story.
But at the same time, I also wanted to tap into this idea that I've had for a long time of making a film with no crew, which I've never done. I've thought about it every time I've made a movie. I always thought maybe I'll just go with really minimal gear and I'll shoot the whole thing myself just to kind of prove to myself I can do it.
But I never did it. But then another film I was going to make right before this one fell through and that I just decided you know what? Rather than take a year to write a script, maybe raise money for it, why don't I just do something with no crew? I could start today and that might actually mean writing a script that can evolve over time and that can change and that we can shoot in little blocks, which is what we did on Disappearing Boy.
And when I say we, it was me and usually two actors on any given day, sometimes 3, but it was basically just us, me, with a camera, and an audio recorder. And then I wrote the full treatment and the first act, and then we shot the first act over the course of a couple of days, took a month or two off, shot a few more days, and we just kept doing that writing, shooting, editing in tandem.
And then after about, about like nine months into the process, we had the movie fully shot. And I spent the remaining several months after that just really putting the edit together. And color. And the whole post production, even the sound design, apart from the music, which was done by composer Craig Saltz.
IM
I'm amazed that you pulled this off as a one person crew, I think it's a little crazy, to tell you the truth. We shot a feature late last year, and for most of it myself and my partner Sarah were the only crew. Some days we had a production assistant as an extra pair of hands, but we were absolutely exhausted at the end of each day. When it was done, we were pretty much burnt out. So the fact you have done this all by yourself is just amazing to me. Would you do this again?
NK
I definitely would. And I think it's funny because I totally hear what you're saying and I've had those experiences too, where I've had small crews or done things just with a friend and then felt exhausted. And I think I've done it enough times that by the time I made this film, one of the intentions I had for it was that it would feel sustainable.
Some of our shoot days were three hours, some of them were longer, but even the longer days were very casual and very relaxed. One of the things that we did was every morning before we filmed, we met at the location and just talked through the scenes.
My favorite scene that we shot was in Malibu at the beach. And that was like just me and the cast sitting down for brunch, talking about the idea and going through the scenes, figuring out how to make it better.
Filming Disappearing Boy in Malibu
And then two, three hours in, we get up from the table to actually start filming, but at that point, we're well-fed. We're in a good mood. We're at the beach. We've talked about the idea and we're on the same page, and then we go and hike up the side of this cliff because we didn't like the angle from down below.
And then I basically just let the audio roll and let the camera roll and we improvised. How are we going to frame this and shoot it and how are we going to get all the coverage? And then, a few hours later, we're done and we go home and we beat traffic.
So for me it’s like, how do we make it not only a good movie with a very small crew, but how do we make it operate as a really great set where it doesn't have to have that feeling that most experiences I've had on set, turn into where you just feel like at the end of the day, like you're just so exhausted and drained.
IM
Interesting. So it sounds like you took an approach where you deliberately went slow and steady rather than try to cram as much as you could each day.
NK
Exactly. I think that there is an illusion that when you're on set and when it feels fast paced, that you're actually getting more done. But from my experience, I got a lot more footage in the can per day working like this. So even though we might only shoot for a much smaller block because we're kind of being more casual and we're talking or, oh, you know what, we should get another piece of wardrobe. Let's go walk over to Target and buy something. It was that sort of thing.
So yes, it was definitely more casual and it felt like a much slower pace for sure. But in terms of what it actually manifested in, in terms of the raw footage, I got way more coverage than any of my other films.
I had way more shooting ratio like raw footage to final. And that was because we knew what we were doing. Like most times on set, you could have a 12 hour day, but you're really only shooting for like 2 hours because you're setting up a light and then, you know, you get caught up in the technicalities of trying to match the hair light between shots and pulling up playback.
And then one of the crew members has an idea you want to try and then before you know it, it's lunch. So it feels like you're shooting and you're doing all this stuff. But then at the end of the day, you're like, oh wait, we spent so much time getting this one angle but we didn't get enough coverage of all this other stuff we needed.
So yeah, it was a really unique thing and I definitely would want to do it again, if nothing else, just for that, for that benefit because that was something that surprised me for sure.
IM
I like it. It's like a relaxed approach to filmmaking. In an industry where often people are not that relaxed, I really like this approach. And it's all natural light?
Filming completely with natural and available light.
NK
Yes. I mean, the only artificial lights we used were available lights. So if we were in a motel room, we could turn the room lights on or off. We could shut the blinds, we could close a door or open a crack to let some of the light from the bathroom seep in. But that was it.
And that was very much part of this whole idea of keeping it really simple and keeping it very streamlined. There would just be no way that if I was trying to light it myself I could film this way.
And I am not a DP by trade but I have lights and I am definitely comfortable lighting in the style that I like. But I'm also very comfortable with natural light. I love the aesthetic of natural light. And a lot of the shots that we got, if I had lights with me, I know that it wouldn't have looked as good. There's this one shot, for example, where Jessica is laying down on a bed facing the window.
And I would have lit it with whatever soft light I had available and try to push it in and make it look like daylight. But we had a window, so we just opened up the blinds and waited for the right time of day for the natural light to flood in and hit her face. And it's one of my favorite shots in that sequence and it's faster and it just looks better. So natural light was a huge part of making it possible.
IM
So I want to talk about micro-budget filmmaking in general. I read a quote from you which I really like. I'll paraphrase: your collective body of work is more important to your career than any single film. So is that why you advocate for micro-budget filmmaking, because you can produce more films that way? And how many films are you currently working on? How many do you make per year?
“if you're an artist, if you're a filmmaker, your duty really is to create art.”
NK
That's a good question. So in terms of how many, Disappearing Boy will be the third feature that I've fully completed and will release. I actually made another feature years and years ago that I never released. It was sort of like my film school, and now I have another feature called Teacher's Pet, which is financed and distributed already.
We're going to shoot it in August of this year. So in terms of how many projects I want to be working on, in an ideal world, I would have at least two to three projects at a time in different stages. So I'd love to have one that's earlier in development, one that is in production or post and then one that's complete and that we're marketing and promoting.
And the reason I like that approach is because most films don't happen or don't happen the way that you think they will. So if you have three things on the go, maybe one of those three is going to actually fully be completed in the time that you think. Maybe one of the other ones will eventually get done, but it gets put on the back burner and swapped for something else.
And that's just the nature of making films, it's this juggling game where you're always trying to find the right time and the right people and make everything align. And it's more likely that you're going to have that luck when you have multiple irons in the fire. So for me, having multiple films is really important just because my goal is to create work.
And I feel like this is something I talk about a lot, but if you're an artist, if you're a filmmaker, your duty really is to create art. And however you do that, it could be on your phone, it could be worth millions of dollars for an investor, that doesn't really matter. It's about how are you going to continue to make art every single day?
And if you can figure out how to do that, you can be successful and you can build a body of work that I think will be stronger than any one piece. Because if you think about why Hitchcock is great or why any of our favorite directors are great, it's not because they made one amazing film.
There's a lot of directors that made one film that is amazing, but they didn't make any other movies, or they didn't make anything else that connected. And we might love that film, but for that particular filmmaker, it just didn't necessarily bolster them in their career in the way that a body of work can.
And I look at all these micro-budget films I’ve made and none of them have gone to Sundance. None of them have Oscar nominations, there's been no traditional Hollywood buzz around anything that I've ever done. However, because I've done it over and over and over again now I'm starting to get offers from distributors and financiers. And people are interested in working with me on stuff because I've just put one foot in front of the other and anybody can do that. Anybody could make multiple films on a small scale.
And that's what people want to know; are you somebody that's done this a few times, knows what it's like, understands the ups and downs and can navigate a film set? And I think for producers who either want to invest in you or the actors that want to work with you, knowing there is a body of work is so, so important.
IM
That's a good point. A lot of filmmakers think you're successful only if you make one of the major festivals or your film is on Netflix, there's a lot of outdated ideas about filmmaking, from my personal opinion anyway. But I like the fact that you actually are working, doing what you love, that's the definition of success.
So what would you say to filmmakers just starting out who want to make a living from this? Is it just go out there and make something and just keep making something?
NK
I think so. And I also think something that I've done is just separate the making of the money from the art because even if you're working on the highest levels of the industry, there is no guarantee and there's no guarantee of financial success. And if anything, I know so many filmmakers that have made movies that have had budgets of $3 million, $5 million, $20 million and some of them have been successful, but rarely have the filmmakers actually made any substantial money from those personally.
Noam Kroll working on set.
And in the cases where they have made money, it's usually not enough to live on for the rest of your life. So it's always about figuring out your own system in your way, whether you're just starting or whether you're working as a Hollywood director. The best and most successful Hollywood directors are the ones that are also entrepreneurial.
It's no coincidence that Steven Spielberg and George Lucas and all of these top directors also own production companies, also have other business ventures, also have other investments.
And this especially applies to indie filmmakers who we think are so successful and who we admire and we love their films. But some of them make a movie every four or five or six years. Some of those movies don't make any money. So these filmmakers who we love because they create beautiful work and we see their work premiering at Cannes or wherever, they're not necessarily just going home and sitting on a bunch of money and doing whatever they want.
A lot of them are film professors, or they invest whatever money that they made into real estate or they open a restaurant or they have a side business or consult or direct commercials. Pretty much 99% of people that I've met in the film industry also do things outside of the film industry or on the periphery of the industry.
So I think what happens sometimes is when filmmakers are starting, they have this idea that if I can make money from it, that gives me legitimacy as an artist, but it doesn't really work like that because even the most legitimate artists that you love don't always make that much money or not nearly as much as you probably think that they're making.
So for me, it's been helpful to kind of untether those two ideas. And what that's done is it allows me to focus on earning a living as a separate thing that can fuel my movies as opposed to my movies having to fuel my lifestyle by putting the pressure on them that, okay, if this movie doesn't make $1,000,000, I have to quit filmmaking because then I can't pay for everything.
I want it to be the opposite. My business is so strong that every movie I ever make could flop. And I can still make movies because I have a system that exists independently of whatever the market wants to do at that time. Or whatever someone thinks my movie is worth or not at any given moment. So it's a very different way of thinking about it.
IM
Interesting. It also sounds like you fund a lot of your work and that's often against traditional advice. Everybody making films always tries to find investors but you go the opposite way. Would you advise new filmmakers to do the same?
NK
If they can afford to, yes. If they can't afford to, I would say instead of trying to just put it all on a credit card or mortgage your house to get some money to go make a movie, I would say figure out how to do the movie for as close to $0 as possible.
That would be my solution because you can make an amazing movie for next to nothing. Sometimes you can make it better and you're more innovative than having $100,000 or something. Having $0 might actually lead to a kind of ingenuity throughout the process. So working on a small budget, there's just so many advantages to it that I feel like and if you want to work on a bigger canvas, eventually you're going to have to start with a small movie.
So no matter if your goal is just to make small movies forever, or if you want to make big movies or whatever it is, usually the starting point is the same. And then where you take it from there, it's up to you.
“I do think that the advice to never finance your own movies, it’s a bigger risk to just never make a movie.”
IM
What do you say are some of the biggest challenges you face as a micro-budget filmmaker?
NK
I think one big challenge is just the temptation to not do it this way. And back to financing and all the advice you hear your whole life, one piece being, don't finance your own movies, and you do second guess yourself sometimes because you're like, okay, I'm doing literally everything that everybody tells you not to do. But to me, it makes sense to do it this way.
So the hardest part sometimes is just believing that you actually are on the right path and committing to it even when you're in the harder moments. It's easy for me now to say, I made this film with no crew. And yes, the shoot days were easy for the most part. But of course, I had moments, especially at the beginning, where I'm like, Hey, we just shot one day of footage, we have another 15 days or whatever to go, is this going to ever get made?
Framing an image on Disappearing Boy
But you have to just believe in yourself. And the finance thing, not to jump all around, but I think it might be an important point. My goal is to be able to finance movies for the rest of my career. Some movies, it doesn’t make sense. Like the movie Teacher's Pet right now that I'm in pre-production for, the distributor is financing that movie.
And that's great because that gives me a different experience as well and it can learn from that. But my goal is that as my businesses continue to grow, my films continue to grow. So every time my business goes up in revenue, that's just more money that I could put into my feature. So just right now, I can finance micro-budget features, but hopefully in ten years if I want to be financing a bigger budget movie than I would have that ability and I wouldn't necessarily need to go through a traditional investor. That's my personal goal.
I know that's not for everybody. But if you want other people to invest in your movie, then how are they going to do it if you're not willing to invest in yourself? And when you're investing in yourself, you see yourself more transparently. It's easy to spend someone else's hundred thousand dollars and not care as much. But if it's your money, you're going to be really careful about how that's being spent.
IM
Counting every penny.
NK
Exactly. Again, not that everyone has to work this way, but I do think that the advice to never finance your own movies, it’s a bigger risk to just never make a movie.
IM
What do you say to people who consider it unethical to make micro-budget films? Because you usually can't afford to pay your cast and crew proper rates. So making a movie is a privilege, no one owes you any labor for your movie. I see this debate online quite often, your micro-budget films are just exploitation. What do you say to those who have that point of view?
NK
I would say that they probably haven't been on a micro-budget set or at least one that's run well because I've worked on sets from a zero person crew to a 200 person crew. And while I won't say there's a direct correlation, I'll say that the worst experiences I've ever had on set and the worst things I've ever witnessed on set were on the bigger productions because they have more leverage to take advantage of people.
So I think outsiders who generally don't have experience on film sets on any level, it's logical for them to say, oh, people don't get paid enough on film sets. So what's happening on a micro-budget set? Nobody's getting paid anything and people are getting exploited.
But it's kind of the opposite, like I said on my film, we made the movie for $6,000, but I'm sitting at a beautiful restaurant at the seaside in Malibu, with my cast eating brunch and then giving them three hours of work. And then they're driving down the Pacific Coast Highway to go home. And it's a beautiful, energizing day where none of us felt like we were working.
So you can do those things if you choose to on a micro-budget production and you can't take advantage of people the way that big productions do when they're like, well, you're lucky to be on this because so-and-so actor’s here and this big name producer is here. So you better just keep your mouth shut. Do what we tell you, work the 14 hour day.
I think that people who think that way, if they're not filmmakers, it's probably an innocent oversight and them not understanding that when you make a micro-budget film, it's just a completely different thing than making a big budget film in the same way that it's like, would it be exploitation for four band members to say, Hey, let's try to be the next Beatles and let's get together every Friday and have a band practice in our garage for a year in LA.
We'll make an album after that year. Is that exploiting anybody? No, that's a bunch of artists getting together there to create something of value, and that's what micro-budget filmmaking is so for people that don't get that, I think that's okay. And understandably, some people have been burned really badly on poorly run micro-budget sets. And I feel for those people because there are horrible producers on every level.
But to think that budget has anything to do with how a human being treats another human being …I don't care what someone is paying me or what I'm paying them, I'm going to treat everybody the same way, I'm going to treat them respectfully and treat them well.
And I think that for filmmakers that resist micro-budget films and who do kind of know better, I think often it's just another reason for them to procrastinate and not make a film. You know, we're always looking for excuses to not create because we're afraid of expressing our creativity.
A micro-budget film is kind of undeniable in that you can be somebody with no money, no resources, you can borrow your friend's iPhone and you can make a decent movie. If you put in the time, you could find an hour a day or whatever it is to make that film. Where there's a will, there's a way. And I think if you have that attitude, you realize the only thing stopping me from making a movie at this point is myself. But people probably don't want to admit that or feel that.
So they have to point the finger and say, well, it's not me. It's that I'm a good person and I don't want to exploit people. So I'm not going to do a micro-budget film. But time and time again, we see huge budget films exploiting people on a level that is unprecedented and shocking. A couple of years ago, there was this big Instagram account, IATSE Stories, that just showed all these union set workers relating their experiences. “I'm falling asleep driving on the way home.” “They kept me up all night.” That will never happen on any set that I run.
IM
That's a great answer. So switching tact a little. You seem like a very busy man. You're making these films, running a weekly newsletter, doing your color grading, running a film community. And you’re a father too. How do you maintain your busy schedule and don't get burnt out?
NK
It's really hard. I'll be honest, it is hard, but I just love what I do and I try to pick things to work on that I'm passionate about. So like today, we're doing this interview. I literally walked in the door 2 minutes before I put on Zoom. We're doing the interview and then once we're done, I'll go straight into something else.
So for me, in terms of specific practical things that have helped, I try to just eliminate the downtime because we all have a lot more time than we think in the day. And a lot of that time can just be spent on our phone scrolling on social media or watching four episodes of Game of Thrones or whatever it is that night.
I have this rule where I never consume more than I create. If I tell myself I don't have enough time to write a script, but I somehow manage to get through a full season of whatever, then I'm lying to myself, I do have enough time. I'm just not prioritizing my creativity.
At the same time, I really value time away from film and I value time with my family. And that just means I have to be very methodical and specific about how I organize my days and what I'm prioritizing, what I'm focusing on, and how I can leverage one thing to have four or five derivatives.
As one example, I was working on some new color grading LUTS for CINECOLOR, my website where I sell lots of post assets and stuff like that. And through creating it, I kind of uncovered this new technique to emulate the Technicolor film look. Okay, that's interesting.
So now that'll become something I can share on Instagram. I can share it on Twitter, I can build it into a newsletter and then I can turn that into a blog. And then if that does well, maybe I'll record something about it in a podcast episode. Or another example would be if I make a feature film, we're also getting behind the scenes content that can then go on my blog and drive people to my website, and then I can teach people about the process through a course.
So there are a lot of things, but they all interwoven in a way where for every action that I take, hopefully there's not just one reaction, but four or five, six different things that are then spawning off of that.
So it's a combination of being methodical and purposeful with my time, really planning things out. I know what I'm going to do every day of the week, every week. I know my monthly targets. My quarterly targets. I plan sometimes to a fault and I'll go off the rails every single day, but at least I have a North Star to where I'm going.
And I just love what I do. So I'd rather be making films and making podcasts than sitting here thinking about doing it. So I think that's what it comes down to.
“So if you want to make something, make something. Life is short, you don't know how many chances you're going to get to do it.”
IM
Sounds like you build a nice system that works for you. You automate a lot of the processes where one thing leads to another which is great. Is your partner also a filmmaker?
NK
She is very supportive of filmmaking and I think of her as a partner in film. She works in the health and wellness space, and she’s also an amazing chef. And she does all sorts of things that are outside of filmmaking. But she's known me since I was 25 and she's grown with me and been on all my sets and she's definitely very supportive of what I do, but she's not necessarily a full time producer or anything like that.
And that works for us. Because honestly, sometimes, I need to get away from work. And she doesn't necessarily have to know the nitty gritty of everything I'm doing, even though I end up telling her anyway. [laughs]
IM
Oh, that's good. I think it's so important to have a support network when you're a filmmaker because it can be very stressful, you know, it can be very uncertain. It's important to have someone with you to actually support you and that understands.
NK
That's the most important thing. And there's this thing where every book I read on any topic – could be on personal finance, could be on creativity – they all have a chapter that's on your partner. The person that you pick to spend the most amount of time with will have a dramatic effect on your life and your well-being and your career.
And it's so true, even if they're not involved at all, it's like if someone over time, especially if you get married, you're with somebody year after year who is just chipping away at your confidence or making you second guess yourself or, saying well, don't do this. You have to make more money for our family, etc. There's so many ways that a spouse or a partner could make you feel like you're not doing enough or you're not succeeding fast enough.
And filmmaking is something that takes a long time where there's no guarantees. And if you are in any sort of relationship, I feel like it's so important that the person gets what you do and that they respect that, and that obviously it goes both ways. You have to understand where they're coming from. But yeah, that's a huge part of it for sure.
IM
Very true. Very true and very beautiful. I'm going to call my wife after this call. Llet's finish on a fun one. So if you could produce any film and the budget didn’t matter, what would you make?
NK
Hmm. That's a good question. My dream project, it's more of like a personal film. It is very much inspired by films like Mid90s, directed by Jonah Hill, where it was very loosely based on his life. And it's funny because you say any budget, I still go to probably like a million dollar budget, because I don't particularly like most blockbuster movies.
And the idea of doing something just because it has a high budget, that doesn't really excite me. The budget excites me because maybe then I can pay some actor that I love who I would never otherwise get to work with. But in terms of do I have any aspirations of going and shooting on some LED screen and having fake explosions and things and then releasing some superhero movie that everybody's going to hate no matter what you do with it … I have no, no, interest in that.
But what I would like to do is have enough money to do an independent film that's like Mid90s, which was such a great film to me where it was so beautifully done. It was shot on film. It was a period piece. So money obviously had to go into that movie, but it still feels gritty and raw and almost like cinema verité in a sense, and documentary style.
And that movie was really inspirational because I have so many memories of things from growing up as a kid that I want to put into a movie and I want to almost encapsulate my childhood in a weird way because I have all these things and I'm like, Oh, those were such interesting memories and there's so many lessons in these things.
And I went through some pretty crazy stuff and I'd love to find a way to fuse that with the music that I love from that age and then have the money to license the music to shoot it on film, to get the big actors.
So the money is about having the tools and resources and cast and crew to really see the vision through exactly the way you want it to do it. A movie like that, I just wouldn't do it on a micro-budget because I couldn't. I can't set something in 1995 without money unless it's in one room.
IM
Yeah, I'm the same. I have zero interest in blockbusters. We make relationship dramas and if we had an unlimited budget it would just be used to get bigger actors.
NK
Exactly. And by the way for anyone who does like those movies that's cool, I like watching things like Top Gun, it’s fun. I can enjoy a popcorn movie. I'm not one of these cinephiles that says anything that comes out of Hollywood is trash. I love any movie. Like I watch movies with my three year old, I like cartoon movies or whatever, Disney, Pixar, I love some of those movies so I can enjoy anything. But yeah, that's just sort of how I'm wired, I guess.
IM
Cool. Anything you want to plug? Any last words?
NK
Yeah. I'll just say for filmmakers listening, I'll just reiterate something we talked about before, which is anyone that wants to make films, I think you should make films. You already have the resources you need, even if you don't think you do, you do. Most people that think they can't make a film actually can.
And it's okay to do it in a way that's not conventional because sometimes that ends up being better and sometimes that leads to the more conventional path later on. So if you want to make something, make something. Life is short, you don't know how many chances you're going to get to do it.
In terms of if people want to follow my stuff, my newsletter is kind of a hub. I have a blog, a podcast, a newsletter, and I'm on social media here and there. So if people want to go to my website and newsletter you can sign up. I send people an email once a week on Sundays just for advice on filmmaking and anything I think will be helpful. But I really appreciate you having me on. Such good questions and hopefully we'll do this again one of these days.
IM
It was a pleasure and it was very inspiring so thank you so much.